And it starts again.

There was a flamefest over at Alas, A Blog over women and civility, and how civility is used as a cudgel against women who dare take on civilly worded misogyny. Thanks to a lot of stuff on my plate, I didn't have a chance to participate much.

As I read the posts in a long catch-up session, I swung from thinking, "Damn, that was harsh," to "Yeah! That's it!" Because the thing is, like the women who posted or not, like the way they did it or not, they've got a point. Any time we call men out on their behavior, they give us a hysterical reaction and high-pitched whines. One would think they were being sent off to the gulag or something. Object to someone calling you anti-sex? You oppressor! Have the gall to point out that men don't have to deal with sexism? You manhater!

It seems perfectly okay for men to call us manhaters, dykes, frigid, witch-hunters, repressive, "victims", and censors for having the gall to question the value of rape porn (you don't even have to advocate censorship, just criticize it), ask why it is that women's bodies are used as ornamentation for magazines as diverse as Vogue and Maxim, point out that the wage gap does exist, and say that being promiscuous doesn't mean one deserves to be raped.

Call them on this, and suddenly it's Pinochet's Chile. I mean come on, enough already.

You look at the tiresome "Where are the Women Bloggers" debacles that happen every three months or so, and it only proves our point. Having the gall to point out that yes, we exist, is apparently unforgivable. The attacks women go for this--women who stated this quite civilly were called hysterical and accused of attacking people. They were also called dykes, ugly, manhaters, moonbats, and had their looks derided and their appeal to the opposite sex questioned. Because, you know, that's civil.

We get the "rational" excuse from that not seeing us on their (male) friends' blogrolls led to the question. Or the "fact" that a self-selecting survey revealed no women bloggers--even though no women were asked to participate, and the men who participate don't acknowledge us. Or the "fact" that on the Truth Laid Bear, most women bloggers don't have the traffic men do (even though questioning why men don't link to us lowly females is somehow verboten with these guys).

But we're unfair in pointing out the fallacies in their logic--it's common to see a progressive guy jump up and down in froth when a mere woman takes him to task for this. She's not regarding his feelings, and it hurts his feelings when she calls him a misogynist (even if she hasn't). Well, great, except when our feelings get disregarded and we don't like it (you know, being called ugly dykes, ad nauseam), we're being victims. We're hysterical. Men who don't like it are justified.

I'm sick to freaking death of this.

And now this. What She Said points out that Alternet--the internet resource for progressive views--started a blog, and the blogroll is mostly men. Golly, what a shock. (Thanks to Amanda and What She Said! for the heads-up.)

So of course, I fired off a message to them. (You can too, with just simple click of the mouse here.) I guess it was uncivil.

Look, I'm going to come off as short and pissy here. Oh well.

I am just sick to death of progressives ignoring women. Look on your blogroll--with the exception of Wonkette, there are no women, and with the exception of Kos, zero people of color. Even the pro-feminist blog you listed is run by a man (and I love going to Alas, but he ain't a woman). Just the usual suspects, most of whom link to other men, and then wonder where all of the women bloggers are. Even though we are here, even though we make it pretty damn clear we exist, we don't count because we're not on their blogrolls. Hello, circular logic.

And now, women are getting ignored again. We just don't exist.

Yeah, and I know--these are the A-list bloggers, these are the well-known folks. But has it ever occurred to you *why* that is? I mean, this is a progressive site, you all do think critically about the distribution of power and why certain voices are heard, don't you?

There are plenty of women bloggers out there, who talk about things that affect us, who talk about politics from our view, who give our perspectives. Trish Wilson covers family law, Feministe covers economics, violence, and poltics, Rox Populi covers the war, the administration, and current events. Mouse Words takes on politics and popular culture, Marian's Blog takes on race, economic inequality, Sisters Talk covers queer rights, race, and politics.

I mean, jeez, you don't even link to Natalie Davis? Mac Diva?

Not to mention male bloggers of color--Prometheus 6? Solo-Train? Latino Pundit? The Republic of T?

By ignoring us, by choosing not to give us space and time, you choose to ignore the very issues that affect us. Our absence is indicative of your indifference to us. Is this what we can expect from progressives?

Our voices are out there, yet you chose not to hear them.

I have to say, I'm very disappointed.

Do a websearch on any of the blogs I listed--you'll find them. Check out Globe of Blogs. Hell, check out my blogroll, you'll see them. You'll see a whole bunch more than I listed in my note to you who have plenty of value to say, whose voices deserve to be heard.

Sheelzebub

Pinko Feminist Hellcat

http://pinkofeministhellcat.typepad.com/pinko_feminist_hellcat/

Okay, so I might have been wrong about Kos being the only person of color (feel free to correct me if that's the case) but I doubt the majority of those folks are Black, Latino, Native American, or Asian. Come on. Where are they? We are we?

Why are we being ignored, and how seriously are we supposed to take progressives who shrug us off, who preach civility but practice passive-aggressive BS, and who hold one standard for women and one for men? How seriously shall we take progressive white guys who like the idea of questioning the system, as long as we focus on the system and not the fact that they're still running it?

Update: Evan from Peek sent me this response.

Short and pissy is good is fine! Namby pamby, not so. I hear you and others and here is my response which I'm posting on What She Said! It is much appreciated:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Morgaine,

As I wrote to you personally, thank you, thank you, thank you for the feedback on PEEK. Instant feedback and the possibility for dialog are exactly what gives blogging its promise -- the ability for underrepresented voices to be heard. And heard they will be. Think of it as a "beta" test...the whole purpose of which is to learn from feedback.

I'd like to reiterate for your readers exactly why PEEK is as it is right now -- long on familiar, white male bloggers:

The blogroll and content in this first day, far from being cemented, are essentially the results of our reader survey. My mistake for not making this clear.

The intention was to begin by presenting our readers (many of whom are getting their very first taste of the blogosphere) with a more familiar landscape while integrating other voices as we proceed.

I can't tell you how excited we are for PEEK to provide a platform for the very voices you -- and others -- have recommended. It's a delicate balance with a readership that includes everything from folks who laugh when they hear the word "blog" (because it's, well, a funny word) to folks who write their own; and quite a bit of fine-tuning and adjustment will no doubt take place over the next few months.

I look forward to the dialog.

Yours,
Evan Derkacz
Associate Editor
AlterNet

PEEK: http://alternet.org/peek/

Ampersand of Alas, A Blog wrote and asked them to take him off of their blogroll if they wouldn't include any women. Hopefully, they'll rectify this soon. I'm glad Evan wrote back.

Comments

[Sheelzebub]

Just so you know, Brian, you rock my world.

[Sheelzebub]

Rich, cut the crap. You did a Google search to find a poster you developed a beef with at Alas, a Blog. Your original post--which I deleted--was completely off topic, and referred to an exchange you had with someone else over at Alas. Your behavior goes goes beyond trolling and into stalking.

You are not welcome here. Get lost.

[Brian Vaughan]

I also post as FoolishOwl, and I was pretty severely criticized in that flamewar. Eventually, it occurred to me that people I really respected were angry at me, so I tried to figure out what I'd done wrong, and I apologized. And curiously enough, I haven't been treated as a pariah since.

What puzzles me is how seldom in Internet flamewars I ever see anyone consider the possibility that they were actually in the wrong, and acknowledge it. In particular, having seen several flamewars involving more-or-less progressive men complaining about harsh criticism from women about sexism, I haven't seen the men involved back down or apologize.

I had taken those criticisms very personally, and I got very emotional about it. That was a big part of the problem -- I wasn't thinking politically about the argument. And I don't think that gets addressed -- that men take political criticism as personal betrayal. Perhaps that's an aspect of "male privilege."

[Rich]

Why can't we just have dicussions about feminism without guys hijacking the discourse.

Perhaps it's the text of the discourse, that men are evil slavering rapists out to oppress women, who think that women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, etc...

For some inexplicable reason, some men feel a need to defend themselves when attacked. Go figure. Don't women do the same? Is self-defense really wrong when done by men?

[Rich]

People make mistakes. Feminist men make mistakes. Feminist women make mistakes.

Hanna

Hi Hanna,

Someone somewhere said that no man is defined by his worst action (or something to that effect). Unfortunatly, if you read the words of most feminists (newsgroups, blogs, or web pages) you will see that this is pretty much the only way feminism portrays men.

When men complain about it they are attacked, called whiners or accused of trying to silence the voices of women.

If you don't like this sort of thing, perhaps you can aspire to more than feminism, humanism perhaps. Men, believe it or not, are people too. You'd never get that impression from a feminist source, but it's true.

Thanks for posting what you did, it's a rare and precious sight these days.

[Elaine]

Good news! Women bloggers are no longer being ignored by the idiot Evan of PEEK!
Bad news! He wrote a mash note to Michelle Malkin last week!
So that's good news, a woman gets serious attention and praise; BAD NEWS it's totally worthless since it's praise of Malkin. Evan sucks.

[Genia]

I'm sorry I missed most of this conversation as I've been working on several projects to help women bloggers get more exposure in the blogosphere. I think the question the boys should have asked should have been "where are the women bloggers WE like?" instead of "where are the women bloggers?" Research shows that 56% of the blogs in the blogosphere are written by women. Obviously, female bloggers exist and we exist in large numbers. The situation is: the boys have their favorites and those favorites happen to be men.

Because I grew very tired of seeing long lists of "elite blogs" that consist largely of men (when I damn well know there are women bloggers out there that can write circles around the best of the elite), I began several services: thenewjane.com (started as part of my Masters Thesis research project) and blogsbywomen.org (just started tonight).

I'm still working on getting the word out about both projects, but hopefully (with any luck) we'll stop hearing the same tired old question every few months.

[Sheelzebub]

Korbin, I suggest you actually look at sokari's blog (linked to her sig) before you start making such unfounded accusations.

[korbin dai]

"Hey Korbin Dai first THANK YOU so much for giving us women your support - men are so generous like that! But as a Black woman I want to say it is not about you as a Black man being "lumped" (a word full of contempt) with feminists - some of us feminsts are Black Women. As for your one tenth experience walking down the street - it is not a bloody competition BUT since you put it that way, I have to say as a Black woman not only do I have to put up with whitey shite but Black man shite also and there is plenty of that around when I am walking down the proverbial "street"."

Didn't say it was a competition. I just don't like the idea of race being lumped into feminist commentary to make it seem like it's a balanced critique when the issue has nothing to do with race, particularly men of color. Your argument is that women aren't being noticed. That's fine. I think they should, as long as they are held to the same standards as men. But why mention black men at all when you real concern is only about women? At any other point feminists would not stand up for the rights men, particularly men of color (I can't recall one feminist protesting any of the police shootings), so why include us now? It's as if you're tossing black men in solely for the PC creds we have. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't suddenly start using "us" (men of color and feminists) when you clearly don't view "us" (men of color, particularly black men)as one of "you" (based on your above comments). Feminists, including black feminists, have done a great job of ignoring the injustices committed against black and latino men. Don't stop now.

[sokari]

Hey Korbin Dai first THANK YOU so much for giving us women your support - men are so generous like that! But as a Black woman I want to say it is not about you as a Black man being "lumped" (a word full of contempt) with feminists - some of us feminsts are Black Women. As for your one tenth experience walking down the street - it is not a bloody competition BUT since you put it that way, I have to say as a Black woman not only do I have to put up with whitey shite but Black man shite also and there is plenty of that around when I am walking down the proverbial "street".

[korbin dai]

hey, i just wanted to drop my support for women voicing their opinion. i think it's great and all. BUT, as a black man, i'd like you not to lump me in with feminists. white women will never experience one tenth of what i have to deal with walking down the street. keep speaking your mind, but stop lumping black men in your comments.

[Q Grrl]

"I'd say that was an honest mistake, and frankly, it's one I could have made."

I think part of what raised hackles over at Alas was that mistake or not, there was no "honest" part of it -- not in the context/dynamics of women's expressions of anger being curbed by calls to civility. And I don't think it is a mistake that a woman could have made; at least not publically, spoken or written. Not while men are actively defining and controlling the parameters of discourse. A woman would not have found herself in that discursive position in the first place to make this mistake. She would have to attain a level of privilege (blindness, sense of entitlement or right, egocentrism) that is simply not there.

One can feel apologetic for Foolish Owl's public discomfort, but why? Why should one man be seen as a victim when millions of women still don't have a public voice? or a private one. Was his the end all and be all of bad behavior? Certainly not. But he did manage to disrail femenist analysis of "civility" and make it become about his own ego needs and hurt feelings. I don't mind holding him over the hot coals a little bit for that!

[Roxanne]

I've been out of it for a couple of days and missed this great post and the PEEK deal, too. Great post here. And comments too.

[Sheelzebub]

Holy guacamole!! Hello everyone, and Happy Sunday evening.

I didn't mention the whole thread drift thing in my post (I kept it to the civility thing) because a) I wasn't all that bent about what F.O. and R.G. did, and b) I was bent about the rules and the concern for tone being placed on the women but not so much on the men.

Another reason why it got up my nose so much--not only have I dealt with the "oooooohhhhh! You're so mean! You irrational bitch!" IRL in the past, I dealt with it last week. My patience was short.

Also, I'll chime in with Trish here--the "thread drift" thing on Alas wasn't nearly as bad as I've seen on other blogs, including Trish's, and some rather lame attempts made on mine. Those other attempts were intentional (and artless). I'd say that was an honest mistake, and frankly, it's one I could have made.

[owukori]

The response from Mr Evan at Alternet is a piece of patronising dribble - I am relatively new to blogging so am not familiar with all the references in your post and the comments (like who is this Brian character that Hanna is defending so strongly?)but essentially it is the same old white male supremacy project. I have read this kind of response so many times when challenges have been made to racism and sexism. All AlterNet had to do was go out there and find women and people of colour - seek and ye shall find. To be honest I wouldnt even read that stuff anyway. I do tend to focus on Africa related blogs - most of which are not particularly female friendly eg I have not had one male response to any post on Gay and Lesbians - not surprisingly given the level of homophobia in the Black community. Since I started blogging and reading blogs I find there is always a certain "tone" to male written blogs and especially some of the comments they make on mine are so bloody arrogant not to talk of ignorant. Thanks for this great post and like Ravenmn for leading me to all these amazing women. As Audrey Lorde once said - you have to challenge racism, sexism, homophobia and all the other projects of white supremacy and male domination whenever and where ever you find them. I need to check out some of the women i have discovered here and make some adjustments to my own blogroll

[Hanna]

Oops. :blush:

I cannot afford to believe that, freedom from intolerance is the right of only one particular group.

[Hanna]

". . . within the lesbian community I am Black, and within the Black community I am a lesbian. Any attack against Black people is a lesbian and gay issue, because thousands of other Black women are part of the lesbian community. Any attack against lesbians and gay men is a Black issue because thousands of lesbians and gay men are Black. There is no hierarchy of oppression.....I know I cannot afford the luxury of fighting one form of oppression only. I cannot afford to believe that, freedom from intolerance is the right of only one particular group. And I cannot afford to choose between the fronts upon which I must battle these forces of discrimination, wherever they appear to destroy me, it will not be long before they appear to destroy you. . . ." Audre Lorde

[Ravenmn]

New here. Many thanks to mediagirl for linking to Pseudo-Adrienne whose rant led me to Alas and thereby to Heart and the Margins and back to Alas and on to Pinko. And all the rest of you awesome women. Take a bow and blog on.

As a newbie, I want to confirm that it really is hard to find awesome women like you. I've tried googling "feminism" and "activism" and "blog" and I get sent to a ton of democrat-liberal mainstream politics sites and not the kick-butt women who tell it like it is sites I crave. Finally I feel like I've hit the motherlode. And, yes, I've known about Alas and Alternet and all the other "regulars" for years. So don't doubt for a minute that lack of linking is a serious problem.

I'm new to blogging but I've been an activist for 25 years. I've heard about these tiring feminist debates in the blogosphere but this is the first one I've read through.

My take on the Alas threads: There comes a time when a person of privilege, and I include myself in this because I'm white and het, should just shut the fuck up, sit back, listen, and try to learn something.

I heard bell hooks speak in the 80s. She talked about the daily opportunities she had to get pissed off about the sexism and racism she encountered. Sometimes she'd swallow it and sometimes she'd let loose.

I realized then, that the only time I was going to learn something valuable was when I could see that anger and feel that rage. hooks has done a ton of educating in civil tones, but to really feel the impact of racism and sexism on a human being, rage is the true teacher.

Just to show you all that I can piss someone off, I need to tell Hanna this:

Your friend has NOT learned the point if he's caused you a minute of worry about his hurt feelings. His feelings on this really do not matter. Especially in the context of MacKinnon and Boreman, two women who have suffered vicious attacks and misunderstanding for years. He needs to get over it or handle it himself, not burden you with it. It isn't your problem.

[Trish Wilson]

I didn't think what Foolish Owl and Rad Geek did was so bad. They went off topic, but I know they didn't intend to hijack the thread. I've seen some posts on this subject that sought to acknowledge the difference between normal thread drift which happens all the time and thread drift done with the ulterior motive of hijacking a comments section. I don't think Foolish Owl and Rad Geek did the latter. I have a commenter in my post on the subject now who is doing the latter. I don't know FoolishOwl but I know Rad Geek. He's a good guy.

[morgan]

I was talking to this really wonderful feminist woman, and we had a discussion about feminism, and after a while she sighed and said that it was really great to just talk about feminism without having to explain and defend it over and over and over again.
And I think feminists need to start asking themselves is it worth the effort when even liberal minded men just don't get it. Why can't we just have dicussions about feminism without guys hijacking the discourse. I think we need to develope a system where we pinpoint what men are doing when they cause the tread to drift and ask people not to respond to them.

[Trish Wilson]

I just finished reading the comments at both posts at Alas on this subject, and I've had about enough of it. The whole mess has devolved into one giant spitball fight. I don't have the desire or energy to get into that.

I noticed another common tactic the guys use to silence women. When we confront them with our concerns, they claim they feel "attacked" and then "demand an apology." A commenter wrote that at Alas, a commenter on my blog wrote it to me, and I ran into a whiny guy in real life who said the exact same thing to me when I confronted him with his drivel. It would be an effective stopper if I allowed it to get to me, but I don't. To use your words, Sheelz, these guys get all whiny and complain that their fee-fees are hurt when we women confront them with their condescending tones, their attempts to hijack comments sections, and with their sexism. Let them whine, as far as I'm concerned. It's not my business to make them feel better.

[Trish Wilson]

I just finished reading all the comments at the two posts on this subject at Alas. I've really had about enough of it. The whole topic has degraded into a spitball fight, and I just don't have time for that. Another tactic I've noticed from the guys who are confronted by women who won't fall for their attempts to take over comment threads is that they feel "attacked" and they then "demand an apology" from those "bad" women who won't abide by their wishes. One poster wrote that at Alas, a troll wrote the same thing on my blog, and I ran into a whiny guy in real life who said the same thing to me when I confronted him with his drivel. It would be an effective stopper if I allowed it to get to me, but I don't. To you your words, Sheelz, these guys complain when they aren't allowed to be the center of attention that their fee-fees are hurt. Oh, spare me. LOL

[Hanna]

I'm sorry for double-posting, but I just wanted to make clear that I'm not singling you out PFH, dear. You're really the only blogger I trust not to attack me for posting and I totally refuse to go to Amp's blog where apparently the problem started. I just can't handle that. I'm not singling anyone out, I don't think, it just feels like a mob is attacking my friend and mobs unlock a fear in me that is beyond the pale. I have to say something, but I'm not capable of standing up to that many people.

I hope you end up on the list of blogs at Alternet. You totally deserve to be there. In fact, most of the women in the mob deserve to be there which really messes with my head why so many people that I respect are attacking my friend so fiercely. It makes me afraid.

Love,

Hanna

[Hanna]

I really don't know what to say about all of this. I stopped reading Ampersand's blog a long time ago because I couldn't stand the level of cruel discourse and most of it was coming from anti-sex-work women. I just can't handle that level of argument due to my own personal issues, so I stay out of it.

What really hurts me is that my friend Brian (Foolish Owl) is being smeared all over the internet by people who don't know him but from his one post where he has admitted several times that he made a mistake even when he thought he was doing the right thing. He has always been an ally to me, has always listened respectfully to me (and that's a hard thing to do because I am difficult to follow sometimes and tend to go on tangents because I don't really think linearly anymore, if I ever did which has always been a bit of a superpower at times, but sometimes it has gotten me into a lot of trouble). It hurts me deeply to see the number of bloggers and commentors who are just pillorying him. His one indiscretion is being held high as an example of everything bad about men talking with women. That hurts so much to watch him in that situation that really, any of us could be in someday and many of us have. I know I've been on forums where I am the only woman and every post I make is representative of "everywoman" and any mistake I made is used as an example of why women are stupid or whatever. It's wrong what everyone is doing. Not the pointing out of the problem, but using Brian as the personalization and manifestation of the problem. I blame the heat and vehemence of Alas, A Blog's comments section that has been slowly growing into a very cruel place where personal attacks are the norm unless you are following the party line. I don't know if that's what Amp wants his blog to be like, but that's not the kind of place I ever want to hang out. Watching my friend and ally being smeared by so many bloggers that I otherwise respect is especially hurtful.

People make mistakes. Feminist men make mistakes. Feminist women make mistakes.

Leave the guy alone. Enough already. From talking with him, he understands. You've made your point, loud and clear. Brian has apologized many times. I think you've gotten your point across.

Can you all please leave my friend alone now? Please?

I agree with the general concept that is being discussed. I think there are many exceptions to the rule, but the general concept is something we have to change if we're ever to live in a just society. Let's keep working on that.

Love,

Hanna

[Morgaine Swann]

We've got better than balls, honey. We've got ovaries. I felt kind of in the middle in the fracas at Alas, because I was new over there and honestly, I don't expect guys to get it. I go in knowing I'm going to have to hammer away at them, and endure being called names. I've got a few I call them, too. The fact is, though, that when you are dealing with privelieged idiots, you have to spoon-feed them until they start to get a clue. What galls me is when women object to something and the guys turn around and try to justify it. the Alas deal got out of hand because the women said stop and the guys didn't. I made allowances, though because those are not necessarily guys claiming to be "progressive" and some of them are admittedly anti-feminist. It's different with the Progressive blogosphere.

Remember that fracas a while ago when Des Femmes and a few others got on the boys for using anti-woman imagery in insulting the Bushitas? To my knowledge, not one of them said "oops, sorry - won't happen again!". They wrote for days about why they were right. That's when we need to hammer them. I know guys don't have a clue, but when we flat out tell you to knock it off, it better stop, or there'll be hell to pay.